"A faith is not acquired by reasoning. One does not fall in love with a woman, or enter the womb of a church, as a result of logical persuasion. Reason may defend an act of faith--but only after the act has been committed, and the man committed to the act."
--Arthur Koestler, The God That Failed, 1950

Faith is the enemy of reason.

If you wanna know why this country is such a mess, just look at our "faith".

We're the most religious developed nation.

And in our shameful policies towards Iraq, towards gays, towards fiscal responsibily, etc., etc.- it shows.

Here's a quote for ya:

"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business."

-Jessie Ventura

Reason and religion are inextricably linked. Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, the three men who invented logic as we understand it today, felt they could only support it by appealing to the existence of a monotheistic divine entity.

If one has no belief in God, one has no fundamental reason to believe that the laws of logic and reason have a universal application. Throw out God? Might as well throw out reason itself.

But why do I bother? You're just a bigot.

Is faith never acquired by reasoning? Or can it not be so acquired?

Faith is sometimes lost by reasoning. Odd that it could be lost but not acquired by the same means.

The comparison with love seems poor. Love for a woman does not involve a system of beliefs.

Ralph,

I agree but I think key for Koestler here is the idea of an "act" or profession of faith. He certainly is claiming that such an act involves a leap beyond reason (or at least demonstrated and logically necessitated conclusions) but this doesn't have to necessarily create an impossible divide between faith and reason.

An image I have heard used to explain the relationship between faith and reason is that of the beach and the ocean, that reason can take you to the edge of the surf and give you the general picture of the ocean but that faith is and comes with the actual plunge into the ocean.

Another way to think of the question is to look at what is called the "god of philosophy," what the famous former atheist Antony Flew now believes in, e.g. This is the god of deism, the clockmaker, and it (I don't see the point in calling it "he" as it is impersonal) merely performs a logical function as a conclusion to reasoned argument about origins. But this conception of God does not conform to that of most everyone normally considered religious or having "faith."

Also, faith as a habitus and act of will seems to me by that fact alone to be something that is not strictly a RESULT of reason (though not opposed to it of course), is any virtue so acquired?

......

Besides, he is talking about belief in communism as a faith anyway and that should be taken into account in discussing his definition or usage of the concept of faith.

HeHe quoted:

"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business."

Sounds like a description of meddling liberal Nazis you so admire.

You are a walking contradiction.

Heha reminds me of these people who come to my door peddling religion. They just can't understand how someone cannot believe the same thing they do and therefore find it necessary to try and convert me. Heha is the same way with science, except his knowledge of science is no better than the religious folks knowledge of true spirituality. Both remind me of a dozen monkeys fighting over a cupcake.

Ben, as I've stated in earlier posts I'm an Agnostic. I disagree with your point that reason cannot exist without being linked to a monotheistic entity. I would be more inclined to agree if the point you're making is that there is no true reason without the belief in something larger than ourselves. A fine point to be sure but I believe that I can still practice and apply reason in my life without the connection to “God”.

Clarification: In line 5 I am referring to the people who come ministering to my door, not the average person who practices faith.

Sometimes, for Jefferson, "faith" functioned as a synonym for "mystery" but always as an antonym to "Reason."
From Gaustad's "Sworn on the Altar of God."

Hehe great quote from Jessie "The Mind" Ventura. Another quote about Jessie. "In the WWF if any of the wrestlers needed any kind of drugs they all new where to get it, Jessie's dressing room." - Any wrestler who was in the WWF in the 80's

Thank you. It really stands out.

Sure Jessie Ventura did drugs.

Ok.

That doesn't make religion any better.

I have more respect for a drugie than a religious person cuz at some point at least most drugies can admit they have a problem.

Religious people die in an altered state of mind. Its like their high 24/7 and never see reality.

OMG AM you are so CLEVER!!!!

Trying to find similarites in me to the things I deride!!!

HOW IRONIC!!! (and original on your part)

The truth is I understand how people believe in god and all that. I understand why people are religious.
And this is why I passionatly disagree with thier stance.

Now, the difference between me and a religious person is that I have no dogma, only reason. If tomorrow god appeared before me, proved to me beyond a doubt that he existed and explained to me how he works, I'd become a believer.

But if Mohamaded did the same thing to a Christian , they'd quote some phrase about "false prophets" and be done with it.

That's the differnece between the non-religious and the religious- the ability to think for themselves.

The ironic part is I think you and I share quite a bit in common as far as attitudes about religion. What I object to is your self righteous, know it all attitude. You seem to be saying that the only people who can have religious faith are the ones too dumb to know any better. That’s what I’m taking exception with. I’ve been around the block too many times to buy into your one size fits all attitude toward anyone you disagree with, including people of faith.

It may be just me but I think a lot of people on this website take you to task as much as for your attitude as for your beliefs. Just a suggestion: If you want to be taken seriously conduct yourself more like an intelligent, mature adult. I think you’d be surprised how many people would be willing to have a fresh start with you and engage you in a debate based on the merits of your argument. What do you say?

AM, I think it should be noted that nobody participating on this site has negatively commented on the fact that you are an agnostic even though you've mentioned it many times using it as a qualifier when necessary to describe your position on a number of issues.

And as I suspect that many on this site do have some religious beliefs and some level of religious affiliation, it seems clear that most here do not consider your position egregious. A live and let live attitude prevails, I think.

So, why does this joker constantly use a barrage of anti-religious no, anti-Christian, blather and insults to help make his point? There seems to be an insecurity there that runs deep.

Nice psychoan*lysis asdf.

I sure hope I'm insecure when it comes to the spiritual questions of life and death.

We all should be insecure, becuase no one can really have all the answers.

That's why religious people are so scary, they think they have all the answers, and this is a dangerous illusion.

"A live and let live attitude prevails, I think."
ASDF

I agree ASDF, that does seem to be the prevailing attitude.

"That's why religious people are so scary, they think they have all the answers, and this is a dangerous illusion."

Hehe

You're painting with an awful wide brush there, Hehe. That's the "one size fits all" attitude I was talking about in my previous post. Probably my suggestion of a conducting yourself better was a waste of time, huh?

I believe in kill or be killed, take what i want, do what i want. who do i anwser to? you hehaw? or maybe mayor bloomberger. or to a gov'ment of , for ,by the people? If no God to lay down the law then who? i dont know if theres a god and i dont care. religion doesnt bother me at all. but people say gays cant marry then thats the law right gayone?

Well,

I guess I won't get to partake in an interesting discussion of the relationship between reason and faith in this thread huh Ralph? Great having trolls around.

Ralph: Of course love of a person involves a system of beliefs. So does love of God. But, also of course, neither is reducible to the system of beliefs they are founded in.

And if K thinks that acts of faith involve acts of love, then isn't he right that to adhere to a faith isn't merely (even if it is partly) an act of knowing?

Yeah, the presence of the troll really impedes serious discussion.